How can art play a positive role in your work day?
Transcript for Take an Art Break Podcast
Ladies, we’re live.
We are live. Hi everybody.
Hey. Hello. We’re excited. We’re here today with Shannon, and we’re gonna have a really amazing chat about art. And Shannon, why don’t you kind of introduce yourself and then we’ll close the question. That will be our, our jumping off point.
Great. Well thank you so much for having me, Lisa and Lauren. I was, yeah. So pleased to be connected to you by our mutual friend, Todd, because we three and be beyond really believe that artists for everyone mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and, you know, we are better people when we are creating and when we found a creative practice. And so I like you both through are in moving or is moving. Creative flow helps people tap into their creative muscle to find greater confidence in their creative process, to practice thinking differently, to be in a container for risk taking and imagination and productive play in a way that’s transferrable to our personal lives and our professional lives. And I think, you know, what’s really resonated with me in talking with you both is that we all really feel like it’s not only good for our, our own selves to be creative, but the ripple effect into the way that it, it impacts the greater world is what’s, you know, really my passion and, and important. So definitely I’m so happy to have found you both <laugh>.
Same mission. I think
<Laugh>, that’s exciting when you do find a person on the same path cuz you’re just like, Hey <laugh>, there’s somebody else here on this, on this road, <laugh>. So,
Geez. Yeah, I love it. It’s you know, it’s just, I I really feel like it’s, it’s my, my charge to bring creativity to the world and, and to see others like art is moving, you know, be so connected to creative flow. It’s like, okay, so I’m not, I’m not the only one out here in, in the work.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s beautiful. Well said.
Yeah. I w so we were thinking specifically about, because a lot of the work that you do is in the, in the corporate realm or let’s say someone who works in an office building. And you had mentioned to us in a previous conversation that you would love to do that to sort of bring art making into that world. And so today’s question is, how can art play a positive role in a workday? Like, what might that do if someone did take that five or 10 minute break to make art? What do you think would happen, Shannon?
Well, you know, I think we can speak empirically because we’ve, we’ve experienced what art making can do, but we also know that everybody appreciates research, right? And we’ve, we’ve talked about this juicy research out of Drexel that says that if you make art for 45 minutes, even if you don’t consider yourself an artist, even if you know, you’re not intending to make gallery worthy, museum ready art, it lowers your cortisol levels, it lowers your stress. And they found that out through swabbing people’s cheeks and, you know people who consider themselves artists, people who don’t. So I think just from the sheer experience of sitting down and finding a mindful moment, getting acutely focused on something that is tactile and kinesthetic mm-hmm. <Affirmative> it’s kind of like taking a shower or going for a run or stepping away from something and having a d different perspective.
Not only does it like lower our, our stress and helps us like reframe and find calm, but I think it also yields new ideas mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so I, it, it also, we’ve also seen through research that it upticks productivity. You know, like I know for myself, I get into this space and I’m like, I can’t take a break. You know, I need to keep going. What if the ideas leave or, or there’s no time we’ve got this like deadline that we’re reaching for. But actually, like, I think if we take a break in a productive way mm-hmm. <Affirmative> in an intentional space mm-hmm. <Affirmative> it can really accelerate what we’re doing. You know, and so I think for me, those are my chief interests. And, and what I would like to, to develop more in terms of research too, is seeing like what’s your productivity? Like, what new ideas do you get? And then also like how does it impact your overall wellbeing?
Right? Yeah. I would I intentional cuz we define an heartbreak as an intentional act of creativity. That’s our definition of an heartbreak. And we seem to be on this path right now of, of showing people that an heartbreak isn’t necessarily what you might think of when you first hear the word art break. You know, a lot of people in our experience think of mostly drawing as has been my experience, but also painting and having that studio space. And I like the intentionality of the break that you’re suggesting. So I’m just imagining someone at their desk working on something for a couple of hours and then intentionally there’s a little like ding ding, ding, you know how you have like screen breaks or whatever. Yeah. So it’s like ding, ding, ding, heartbreak. Yeah. And then they get up and they take their journal with a pen with them, them, and they go sit outside and they just doodle. Or, I mean, I could think of a lot of things, you know, you walk around the parking lot at your job and you look for the color green or something for, for 10 minutes and then you go back to your desk and I feel like you would feel like you had been transformed to a whole nother world and you might be looking at your work in a whole different way. And yeah, like you said, I would, I know that would happen if someone did it with intention. With the intention. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. I love it. I also think of how if people took heartbreaks, so it would change the whole environment of the, the may it be an office or, or you know, how the, the environment would change cuz we, you know, we’re energy <laugh> and if you’re creating your energy changes and so the environment, I mean, and that’s really powerful to have a a creative work environment. Right. The other thing I was thinking about is if people take art breaks collectively like we do at Heartbreak Day, and we know in the magic what happens is like new, think about the collective team ideas and the creativity that, you know, they would be bouncing off each other. I mean, it’s amazing the potential, the limitless potential of, you know, if you do take an art break in your, or you have a, a station, you know, in your, in your corporation or your office.
What can I imagine? I imagine like taking just one desk, just reserving one desk. If you are in a, if you are in a space where it’s cubicles and things like that taking one desk and reserving it for heartbreaks where, you know, you have your oil pastels, your crayons, your I don’t know, your headphones with some classical music or something mm-hmm. <Affirmative> you so many different things. And just for someone to be able to, if they are stuck on something to go and just go from that part of their head for a little bit, or if they just need to do some, you know, I, you know, it’s like everybody needs to get up from their desk and mm-hmm. <Affirmative> walk around for a little bit. So walk walk around to the art break station and, and just kind of swish around for a while and then, and then go back. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean,
I, yeah. I’m doing this
<Laugh>. Yeah. I think the key is, I think, you know, you, you’ve hit on so many like really important points mm-hmm. <Affirmative> in, in just these few minutes. I think the key is intentionality. Because when we, when we don’t have a container of purpose Yeah. We really can’t access the state of flow, which is what puts us into mindfulness, what begets productivity. And so intentionality also butts up against this concept of like, I’m not an, an artist. Hmm. I don’t know how to draw, you know, it would be better if I just sort of scrolled through Instagram or something and looked at art or, you know, or, or did something that I am more comfortable doing. You know, I think we all would be salivating over an art table though, you know, the one, the, the people who might really benefit from taking an art break might feel quite reticent towards it because art is such a vulnerable experience for so many people because of whatever stories they have around their own creativity, around their own artistic voice and history.
And so I think creating a container of intentionality where there is some sort of facilitation, whether it’s more of like a passive table with like, follow these instructions or, you know, what I’m a proponent of is, is is having a facilitator come in much like you would have a yoga instructor come in mm-hmm. <Affirmative> or some sort of team building, you know facilitator come in to really build the container. Because I think the part about creativity and the workplace mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that is so charged is it’s vulnerable. Right. And if it’s not, if creativity or a creative practice isn’t done with intentionality, with clear boundaries, with clear a clear, safe container. I mean, I hate saying safe space cuz I feel like it’s like, I don’t know, it’s just like a, such a nuance. There’s so many connotations to that word now, but, but, but creating a space that has intentional methodology mm-hmm. <Affirmative> with a purpose and, and a a flow to it, you know, can really create opportunities for people to be creative within the workspace without feeling like they’re going to therapy. Right. Because like we, we, we want to create the conditions for creativity in the workplace, but we also wanna respect the boundaries of personal and professional and like mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, how do you do all of that, you know, in the space of the workplace?
How, I mean, I think, so I have two things mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I really agree with having someone who has the ability, sort of the knowledge, the experience and everything of understanding that not everybody’s like gungho about making art coming in. I’ve had that experience before where I’ve had offices ask me to come in and just have everyone take an art break. And this was a recycling center, so we did a, like, an upcycling project and had, like, this woman gave me the like, worst glare I’ve ever received hands down my entire life. Aw. Like I was a waste of time. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, and she was there cause she was required to be there for work <laugh>. Wow. I, the end of the like two hour workshop, she had completely transformed. Wow. And she kind of reluctantly walked up to me to show me her work after all her coworkers sat and were like, they were Agh because it was spectacular, you know?
And so if she had an art making desk at her job, she’d probably never sit down at it. Right, right, right. The touchy of the, of the subject that we’re talking about. And the second touchy thing you just said was the personal and the professional. Yeah. And leads to my sort of my, the second question I have that, that when you ask the question, how can art play a positive role in the workday? Right? You answer it, we all know the answer here, but it’s why if it plays, well, why isn’t it part of the everyday workday? And I think you’ve touched on it, it’s because it becomes a very personal thing if it, if it’s intentional. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you open up so much <laugh>, you know, so how do you, how do you, like, how do you balance those things?
Yeah. I mean, what a wonderful question. Right? How do you balance those, those things? Because art Eisner says art picks up where words leave off. Right? Like, we can, we, we can see through art you know, so much beyond what we can articulate through, through words. And that is can be a really astounding awakening aha. Experience for us. Like, I’ve had experiences where I’ve created art, where I’ve just gotten into this flow and, and something is, I mean, this, this just like came outta me one time and I was like, huh, you know,
<Laugh>, that’s best.
You know, and I’ve, I’ve grown up in the creative practice and process and so, you know, I, I feel comfortable in that sort of unknown space. And I, I found myself in talking with corporations being like, oh, it’s really fun because everybody gets together and it’s like, oh, I didn’t know that Jerry from accounting had this vision, or this voice or this way of, of creating. And then I took a pause and realized, well, wait, maybe Jerry from accounting doesn’t want people to know that. Right. Like, maybe that isn’t actually a selling point to some workspaces and places and to some people in different ways because that could be a very vulnerable
Yes. Experience. You know, I, I think it’s like, how can we see each other at work? How can we find our authentic voice at work as a positive thing? But, you know, it is entirely possible that for some people that is a real boundary push. So how to create space for, for intentional creativity for people to really build confidence in their creative process, to see their authentic voice, because we know that that authentic voice gets put into the shadows, right? And in this protective place as we get older and have to conform to society’s constructs. A so, so how do we, how do we create that that balance between, and it doesn’t need to be an either or, but, but how do we create space for practicing creativity while also creating space for people to find their own limits of their comfort in that process?
And I think that takes, I think, you know, not to too our horns <laugh>, but really tune our horns and to say that’s that’s what makes us important and unique in this space. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I, I don’t think that this can just be some sort of like oh, we’re gonna show up and make some art and to expect the same results as an experienced facilitator coming in with you know, a purposeful methodology, right. That says like, I know how to create space. Like, you know, Lauren, you were talking about the woman at the recycling center, I’m sure you held space for her in her process, right. And knew when to engage and when to give her space and how to talk about the art as opposed to it being like, this is good, or this is not good, or this is right or wrong. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t think I answered your question, but
No, no, it’s okay. What what came up for me was a couple things. The first is, yes, you do need like somebody to hold space for people. And so you have to be a cheerleader. You have to be a, a coach as well, <laugh>. And you have to be able to hold space for people. I think that’s, that’s key. Because I know if you just have a table full of art supplies, you’re not gonna get to the people who really, really need it or you know, who, who could really use it. <Laugh>. Right. the other question I have, or other thought that I have is like, you know, when we do create art, and Lauren, I and I talk about this all the time, you’re kind of showing your real self, right? Your authentic self. And I think a lot of people are afraid that people will judge them.
You know what I mean? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, especially if you have fear of art or you have had a wounded art, and then you know you’re gonna create something. I mean, I can imagine one person be like, what am what are they gonna think of me? You know what I mean? And so how do you create a boundary or safe space that it’s okay. And it’s hard though, I mean, mean, because I think you said personal and professional. Do office offices wanna go to the personal, do you know what I mean? That’s, that’s what came up for me through that
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. And I, I, I guess I would argue that I think they should, right? That would be <inaudible>, right? Whether or not, and and maybe that’s the answer, maybe the answer is that their answer right now is no. And they need someone to talk to them about why it should be a yes. Right? <laugh>. Right. And I think the reason so I would argue that if you wanna put out a table full of art supplies and paper in your office, please do. It’ll be people that use it. But if you want like an all-encompassing type of deal, yes, you should get someone who has more experience. And in the people who say the things like, I can’t draw. I know this is a waste of time. You know all that kind of stuff that you’re going to get when you introduce the idea of an heartbreak to them.
And I just, I, I think that the reason it should be a yes is for all the things we’ve just been talking about for the things we talk about all the time, which is basically that art makes you a better person. Yeah. People make a better workforce, make a better world. And the, the way that art makes people better is that, I mean, you just gave two great examples of those. The research of the, it reduces stress. I mean, knowing it increases productivity. Those are like two huge selling points for a work environment. And then the third would be team building skills. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, there’s, there’s no way that if you get to the point where you can make art together as an office, there’s no way you’re not gonna feel more connected to the people you’re making art with. I mean, we witness within an hour long period people who’ve never met each other, who wouldn’t even talk to each other, <laugh> like, like handing their phone numbers to each other by the end of a, of a hour long heartbreak conversation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> find that connection. They realize that we’re all in this same thing together, and we actually have the same goals. We might just have different ways of getting there, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.
Yeah. I mean you know LinkedIn, Pricewaterhouse Cooper, the World Economic Forum Udemy have all published within this last year that creativity is in the top three skillsets needed not only today, but for the future of the workforce. But you know, the question is, well, how do you, how do you promote creativity? You know, what actually is creativity? Right? You know, creativity is taking a risk and experimenting mm-hmm. <Affirmative> imagining something new being curious engaging in a process that is, you know, messy and communicating in, in different modalities and in different ways, thinking differently. Mm-Hmm. And so we say that creativity is valuable, right. And valued. And it’s, it’s what’s building the next products, right? Right. It’s not only moving businesses forward into the great unknown and the beyond you know, but but it, but it’s also something that helps us in, in our wellbeing and, and who we are.
And it’s what differentiates us from ai, right? Right. Like, so not only does it help businesses innovate and move forward in a competitive market, but it also helps the individual differentiate themselves from a machine. It’s what makes us, not a machine <laugh>, but how do we, how do we create the space to do that? Right? Like, we can say we value creativity, but if we’re not creating you know, the culture for creativity within the workforce, how do we actually think it’s gonna happen? You know, there’s only so many, like trust falls and ping pong competition, <laugh> and drunken bowling, you know, team building that you can do. I mean, it doesn’t have to be drunken, but I just have this drunken, you know? Yeah. And I really think it has to do with leadership. I think you know, having an art table is huge.
Yeah. It would be amazing if there was an art table at work, but if nobody saw their boss sit down and make art, would they have the permission to sit down and make art? I think, you know, it, it, it, mm-hmm. <Affirmative> culture comes from the top. It really does. And we need to see leaders sitting down and taking an art break. We need to see leaders showing how, how we can be we can have intentional boundaries at work. We’re not showing up for therapy mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but we are finding a way to be vulnerable in a space of sharing an idea that might slop you know, going beyond thinking way outside of the box. And how can we practice that we can practice those behaviors, those conditions for building a creative culture through art making. It’s like a test kitchen that is transferable. So, you know, the question is, if, if creativity is valuable at work for not only businesses to move forward, but also for people to stay competitive in the workforce, like, how is that actually happening? And, and how can you practice that in a low stakes way that’s not like this product that you’re developing for your client, but Right. You know, have the transferable skills.
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, that’s great. Yeah. I think what we’re talking about, it would be a game changer. What I’m thinking, what I’m thinking is the, the creativity is kind of like a buzzword right now. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and I don’t know if they’re really walking the talk. If they were, they would have art facilitators in every office, you know, office in the, in, you know, the country. So I think it, it, it’s like, I think it’s, we’re almost there cuz they’re using the language, but it’s, they’re, they’re not, it’s not walking the talk, you know? So it’s, and I don’t, what I don’t understand, I mean, because we’re artists, but why, why aren’t they embracing this? Why aren’t they thinking of this? And why, why would they be rejecting this in this concept? That’s what I think.
Yeah. I think that, well, it’s interesting that you, you say that they want creativity, but they’re not, they, they don’t understand that you can, you can train creativity mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, so you can someone mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, who is quote unquote not creative, which I would argue that’s bs. But someone who is denying their own creativity, that’s better. There you go.
That’s denier. <Laugh>
Could take good creativity, denier, take a denier, and you could make them creative mm-hmm. <Affirmative> through what we were talking about. And so step, they’re not taking, they want you to come in with all the stuff that we are talking about. And I’m, and I would argue that they may not even be talking about the same thing because I think they’re thinking in term, they’re, they’re, they’re not even aware that an art break would instigate creativity. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> they haven’t seen. Yeah. So someone, someone needs to tell them that, or, or send that message to them that, that you can actually create a more creative workforce through the act of taking art breaks on a, on a regular basis. I guarantee you, if that started happening and an office took like, you know, their productivity levels and their like morale, right? Yeah. Two great to measure in a workspace, and they started implementing regular art breaks, they would see an uptick in both morale and productivity hands down. Give it six months. Yeah. It would go.
I think it’s huge. You know, I think that we’ve been trained with a fixed mindset around art. Right. Like, it’s a talent, it’s something that’s
Oh man. Yeah.
Right. Like, either, either you’re good at it or you’re not, or you’re sort of good at it. And it, it’s my mission and yours as well to, to help people see that creativity is a muscle. Yeah. And the more we, it’s like going to the gym, you know, the more we use it, the more confidence we have in it, the more we’re willing to explore it and try different things, the more growth mindset we have around it. And, you know, I also think that we’re trained on like this this is good art, this is bad art. This is the right way, this is the wrong way. And it’s all of this social, social construction that gets in the way of, of us really exercising our muscle because we sort of cut ourselves off before we even, before we even move forward mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But I also think that it takes leaders who are willing to take a risk, you know, like I said before, it, it, it comes from the top down.
And you know, creativity and the creative practice is a growth mindset. It’s messy, and it’s not something that we can always tie down to metrics. It’s it’s, it’s a soft science in so many ways where, you know, I’ve had people sit down at the creative flow, art making table, make art stand up, be like, ah, I feel better. Yeah. And then, you know, they go on their way and then I’ll hear from them a week later and they’ll be like, oh my goodness, Shannon, I got this out. And then I check that and I have, you know, and it’s like, it’s really, it can be hard to measure and because it’s hard to measure in sort of the you know, corporate constructed way, it can be really risky to bring on and feel like you can justify. And so, you know, it, it takes a boundary pushing early, adopting leader to, to see this. And I think one of the ways that they can see it is that it’s one of those things that you just have to experience.
You just have to do it. Yeah.
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.
And that’s definitely, definitely what we’ve noticed.
Yeah. But it’s, in a way, if you think about it, it could be very low risk in terms of a monetary <laugh>. You know, you could, our supplies aren’t that much, you know what I mean? And a facilitator is not gonna be like that much <laugh>, you know? So I mean, I, and I think, I hate to say this, but I think it’s our job if we wanna shift this paradigm, you know mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you have to, you have to talk to the leaders and you have to give them the juice. And you have to say, you know, you can go, I mean, we talk about science all the time on art’s movie <laugh>. We know, you know, it’s like if you make art, guess what? You’re gonna feel better. That’s the bottom line. I mean, that’s, and then the world’s gonna be gonna be a better place. So it’s like yeah. It’s like, how do you, I don’t know, <laugh>, I forgot what even what I was talking about. So <laugh>.
Well, I agree, right? Like, like in the grand scheme of things, it feels like a big risk at first because it’s not something safe like, you know bowling, as I said earlier, or, or something that people tend to do you know, in, in a low sort of low risk way. But the rewards or the gains right, are just as great, if not greater than the risk. And, you know, in terms of budgets, like you said, it’s not that it, you know, we can make art with pencil and a paper, you know, we don’t need fancy materials to, to generate this practice and to engage this muscle.
Beautiful. Well, I mean, I, yeah, I, I completely agree. Let’s hope that, you know, we can come back to this conversation in a couple years and it, and it’ll, we’ll be talking about it, how amazing it was that this company and this company realized how important creativity in the workplace and actually facilitating creativity in the workspace has become. So, yes.
Unless anybody has any last things they just pop into their head that they wanna mention.
Well, the only, I mean, the only thing that I wanna reemphasize is just that you know vulnerability for the sake of vulnerability isn’t necessarily productive. And, and having intentional vulnerability at work mm-hmm. <Affirmative> you know, around a, you know, something that’s guided like art making can, can be really powerful. But I, if it’s not done with intentionality, people feel sort of, you know, without a container of, of safety. And then we don’t, we don’t really reap the benefits of it. And so you know, just being really aware of what is the end goal and knowing that we might not necessarily be able to measure the end goal or, or we’ll be able to measure it, but it, it may be beyond what we can measure. And, and to be really intentional about the methodology of delivering it is, I think, the key to, to helping this.
Well, yeah. I agree with you. And I think it, it does need a guide. Definitely a guide, because you gotta educate people, you know, it’s all about education. Cause you can’t just show up at the workplace as an artist and go, let’s make art. You gotta really talk about how does it transform, how does it seed ideas? How does it make you more, more creative? How do speaking out of the box, it’s almost like as a guide, as an artist going into these spaces, you, you reveal, you, you reveal like what’s gonna, you know, the benefit, what benefits will be reaped.
Yes. But I, I, I think it can be achieved within art table as well. If there are some signs and some mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know you know, intentional guides and instructions. I think that can be done. I think that can be done too. So
I, you know, I would argue that’s a good place to start, you know what I mean? And just, it’s better than nothing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. You think of the, think of like an art table or no art table. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, then I would vote table, and then I would vote art table and then facilitator at least on a monthly basis. Yeah. That’s what I, I think people would see a huge shift. It would see a huge shift in their workspace if they started doing that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I think that the reason you need a facilitator well, we already talked about tons of reasons, but you also go in there and you, you can tell them that, you know, when I say the word art, it means something different. I have a feeling it means something different to me than it does to you. And I’m here to show you that it, that art can basically mean everything and anything. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you know, it’s not, it’s, it, it art doesn’t have a container. Right, right. It Right. So,
Right, right, right. And I think if I had an art table, I would put up that NASA study mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that, that Dr. George Land did, where it showed that 98% of five year olds, four and five year olds tested on the highly genius scale rating category of creativity. And how this longitudinal study measured hundreds of kids over five, five year increments and how their creativity measurements or they’re, they’re reaching the highly creative dropped exponentially. So it’s, it’s not that we don’t have it, it’s just that our muscle has atrophied. And so, you know, if, if we wanna be creative, we just need to spend some time with a four or five year old and follow them <laugh> four, five.
You know? Yep. Find our own inner four and five year old and engage, engage with that, play with that kid. And it’s there. It’s already there. We don’t, we don’t need to do anything but to just find what, find our own way of tapping into that, that voice and that muscle.
I love it. Carl j shut just put in the comment box. Start our table. So start our table would be the station
Carl, Carl is a wordsmith. I know. He’s a deep champion of creative flow. Thank you. I love him. Carl, he’s wordsmith. And that’s his, that’s how his creativity emotes. You know, there’s like, there’s so many ways to be creative, but, you know if, if Carl didn’t risk putting his, his wordsmithing out there, his coworkers might not know that he has that secret power, you know? Mm-Hmm. And so how can we find, how can we see each other’s secret powers And
I was secret power
Superpower <laugh>. Yeah. Our secret superpowers. Superpowers. Exactly.
That’s awesome. Well, thank, thanks Carl, and thank Shannon. I love this conversation and I do, I look forward to seeing the world continue to shift towards making art part of every person’s life. And obviously I’m on that mission, so I’ll keep going on that. And so are the, the other two of you. So that’s awesome. Together we can just move forward. Yeah.
Let’s do it.
<Laugh> onward. Alright. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. I, I, I can’t wait to circle back in a year and talk about how corporations have not only value creativity as a word and as a mission and a vision, but are actually living it in their everyday practice. I’m really looking forward to talking about that
<Laugh>. I love it. Yes. All right. Thank you. Thank you. But we should do it in a year. Thanks.