How does process art help you process?

In this episode, Lisa and Lauren of Art Is Moving sit down for an unscripted conversation about a question that shapes everything they do: how does process art help you process? They trace the idea back to their own childhoods and training as artists, exploring process art as purge, purification, and self-discovery rather than a pursuit of a finished object. Along the way they talk about creation and destruction in the studio, the difference between making art for an audience versus making art no one will ever see, letting go of perfectionism and control, and why struggle itself can be part of the process for some artists. They also reflect on 18 years of creative partnership, how their very different approaches to art-making are rooted in the same tree, and what all of this means for World Artbreak Day and the practice of taking an “art break.” A candid, meandering conversation about creativity, identity, and what it means to trust the process.

WATCH:

LISTEN:

READ:

Hello, hello. It’s Lisa and Lauren from Artist Moving, Take an Art Break podcast. We’re here, it’s just us two.

So we’re gonna have a conversation about you want me to pose the question?

Okay, yeah.

Okay. So I want to ask um, how does process art help you process? And I thought we could just chat about that for a little bit and see where it goes. Because I think it’s really important right now.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think it’s really important, but I also think we like allude to it all the time and we chat about it like throughout our conversations. Um but we’ve never specifically just kind of shared our even our own personal experience with thought we could just go there today and see how it goes, you know.

Well, I feel um my art or the way that I live is process art. It is for me, um process art is really about not the end product, but what’s going on in the moment and in between and then after. So it’s almost like I’ve always, I don’t know why, just intuitively looked at my own work as when I’m done with it, I’ll look at it and stare at it and I’ll say, What do you have to tell me about my life, about anything? Um, it’s also process art is about like, say I’m feeling negative stress. If I just want to, I think we get stuck on the the object, not the expression of what art is. You know what I mean? I think we were trained very little as little children to believe that it’s the it’s the object, it’s the object that’s important when actually if you think about it, it’s the process that’s important.

Yeah.

If you want to add to that, yeah.

Well, I was um I think it was a couple of podcast conversations ago. I I remember I was listening back to it, and it was this idea of um making art that no one else is ever gonna see. And I sort of view that as at least for my own version of process art. Not that my art doesn’t have a process to it, and that it doesn’t help me process my emotions while I’m doing it. It is very much all of those things, even though my my art that I might include in a gallery would be very well, it would be thought out and it would, it would be an object at the end and things like that. The whole sense of it is a process and it is something I don’t even need know I need while I’m doing it. And it takes me a really long time to figure out why I needed to do it and what it was really, like you said, kind of trying to tell me. Um, but I’ve been thinking about this idea of making art. I mean, some people might call it art for art’s sake, right? Right. Um but for me it’s more about really just making it um with no other goal except for the making part, just to kind of see what would happen. Um I think the reason I’m kind of clinging on to that a lot lately is because I am definitely in this moment of my own artistic journey of knowing I need to do something with my personal art, but I don’t really know what that is. I don’t um I don’t know the word want sounds weird to say, but I don’t know what I want to do right now. Like I um I’m a photographer, I’m a printmaker, um, I’m an installation artist, I’m um a baker, I’m a you know, I sew stuff. I have always sort of done a lot of mixed media work. And I’m in this sort of process of figuring out, like, hey, Lauren, what do you want to wake up and do? And so maybe that’s why that question is sticking with me, um, or that assignment that I gave myself like two podcasts ago of like, hey, why don’t you just go make some art? Because I’m not, I’m not really doing it. And so I’m kind of curious as to why, you know, and maybe this is part of the process, which I find kind of interesting.

Well, I’m thinking about something. I yeah, I’m a different animal, I guess, because I’ve always uh I grew up hypersensitive, and my mom kind of shared with me at a very young age that you have to get this out of you, Lisa, because um my sensitivity was seriously like and it wasn’t about the product, it wasn’t my mom saying you got to draw the apple like an apple. It was more like my emotions were so strong, you know what I mean? And she was just like, you just need to process it. You need, and I think that’s what process is, it’s get it out of you. Just get it out. Almost like a lot of times, it’s almost like um a purge, it’s almost like a purification. And in my own, my own life too, I taught, you know, at-risk kids and juvenile um Ju V how to like process their feelings and their emotions. Because I think, especially when you’re at that age and you’re in juvenile hall, you know, and how I did it was processing through DreamArt. They had no idea what DreamArt was, but that that was process and it wasn’t about product, it was about process. And then I taught with the kids at Lincoln Child Center who were in a mental health institute, that it was just about process. And I think that’s how I that’s you know, that’s how I that’s my art. It’s always been about process, although I do show in galleries, I do sell my work. So it’s a weird, I think sometimes as uh artists, facilitators, you have to have this marriage of a paradox, paradox where it is just about process, meaning I don’t give a shit what it looks like. And and through my process, it’s always about creation and destruction. So I can have the most beautiful piece, and then all of a sudden I go, nope, I gotta go into it and it’s gone. It’s destroyed. Right. So, what’s that process also? It’s like to be to, I don’t even know if it’s courage, but to have the just like, I’m just gonna do it. And if I destroy it, it’s destroyed. And then what am I gonna learn from that destruction? Right. So if that’s making sense at all.

No, that makes a lot of sense. I do think that I’m sure that there are many people out there that struggle with the notion is is it still process art if I sell it? And I would say, heck yeah, it is. I mean, if you happen to make art that helps you process um something that happened to you, your current daily emotion, or just even get like your nervous system re-regulated and then you and then you uh are able to sell it, by all means, I mean, I would say go for it because uh, you know, of course, I have the philosophy of like the more art that’s out there, the better. And if if you can make a living um uh through but through selling your work, you know, that’s like a win-win because you’re um supporting yourself and obviously someone um is enjoying your art and you’re making their lives better, you know.

But I also feel this is a it’s a different take on it as well. Um, because we love art museums, we love looking at art too, and we know that is also a process. So, just from my own experience, when a person does buy my work, it’s almost like they fall in love with the process of it. So it’s almost like it becomes their process. So it’s like, for example, I know a lot of people don’t understand Jackson Pollock, but when you go to an art museum and you see just the energy of a Jackson Pollock, that was process art, completely process art. He didn’t know what the fuck he was doing, right at all. Um, he just was like, you know, a lot of times he was, you know, altered by different things. And and but when a person goes to a museum, they’re processing it. That process might be like, oh yeah, my my five-year-old could do that. That’s a process. That is a process, yes. Or it’s the some something like, oh my God, he expressed the the rage that I feel inside from the inhumanity in this world. I mean, so there’s many levels to processing, and I just don’t think it stops at you creating art. That’s like the first step. I mean, there’s so many layers to this for sure.

I mean, I think that you know, it’s sort of um, yeah. No, I think that of course the reason you and I want everyone to take art breaks is because we know we know that that is even more powerful than viewing the art itself. It’s not, it doesn’t mean that you’re not going through a similar process when you view art and and come out with um on the other side with something positive um or negative or whatever it is. Um, but if you if you did that and also uh made art at this, you know, um like if you were if you went to a museum, sat down and took an artbreak at the museum, um, and then showed that artbreak to someone else, like that to me is sort of the cycle. It’s like, you know, you and I constantly talk about the ripple effect. And I think that um that all becomes the uh even a larger process. It’s like a cultural social process. I mean, that’s what that’s what World Artbreak Day is, right? Is that it’s this idea of everyone processing at the same time. And like what is gonna happen? What is gonna happen when a community sits down and they’re all now? I would argue that it takes a little bit convincing for people to not objectify it and turn it into something that is good or bad. And we definitely have those conversations at our tables, all of our hosts do. But when you do find those people that are in the middle of process art, and I would argue that process art can have no judgment. It’s not process art, you know what I mean? And of course, you’re gonna have to try to find that balance between judging, not judging, but it when it’s truly, I think process art is when you are not, you’re not even thinking about what color you’re gonna use next. You’re just picking up the color and you’re using it. That’s in that’s when you’re in the midst of process art. That’s when you’re going to get out the thing of your body, like you were mentioning, Lisa, that you don’t even understand yet. Um, even as adults, right? We to constantly talk about kids not understanding their own emotions. And I’m like, come on, man, there’s tons of adults that don’t understand their emotions. Uh, I mean I would even argue more so because they’re further away from anything processing. Because it’s not just about painting on a piece of paper, it’s also about shooting some basketball hoops outside by yourself. That’s process, you know, and that’s getting the emotions out. And I think that um I don’t I I just I think that when we do that, it’s I don’t even, I lost my train of thought, but I think it’s just we’re you’re in process. Oh no, it’s just like this idea of like what part of it are you gonna take part in? And I think that at the museum, if you’re viewing art, that’s wonderful. And if that’s all you ever do, that’s all you’re ever gonna do. And that and that is the level uh of the benefit of processed art that you will receive. If you’re gonna dive in and um do some process art on your own, you know, it’s sort of like an onion, right? How many layers of the onion do you want to take off and get to the core of it? Um, and I think I guess I’m wondering, you know, even me myself, like how come I can’t get myself right now to do process art? I don’t have the answer to that question. That is a question I’ve been processed, you know. I’m processing your processing. And what is process within.

When I was processing this podcast that we were gonna have this morning, and I was kind of like that in-between state where you wake up and thinking, I need my salary juice, I need my coffee, you know, kind of like staring. And what I um I said it was celebrating process over protection, that just came out from nowhere over protection, over perfection, and over control. So it’s yeah, so that’s fascinating. So it’s almost like process, there’s no judgment. It’s just doing it, it’s letting go. And I mean, not to project upon you, but and also myself, it’s like I know that making a mark every day is powerful, no matter where it comes from, no matter what it is, if I can just doodle or make a mark, getting even journaling is making a mark. Yeah, even like you said physically walking with intention and going, I just need to process, I need to process this stuff. You know what I mean, with my children or with um with the state of affairs of this world, which is so it’s it’s it’s it’s a burden, right? So I and I think there’s so many, yeah, there’s so many layers. Um, and I think uh we just need to get out of the way, get out of the way. And we’re trying, we’re almost taught to be in the way, whatever that social conditioning is, you know what I mean? Is it judgment? Is it perfection? Is it what is I’m I guess what I’m just presenting to the our um audience is why not? Why not? Why why are you in your way? Do you know what I mean? Or who is in your way? Is it society? Is it, you know what I mean? Do I have perfection? Do I need control? Um, I’ve just read something, uh Luis Bourg Bourgeois, the the artist who makes the spiders, she says a quote like something like, um, what did you say? Something about if you try to control too much, it you’re gonna hurt yourself. That makes sense.

Yeah. No, I think I think you are, I mean, all the things that you’re saying, I’m like nodding to. Yes, I am a perfectionist. Uh, I always have I, you know, I am I call myself a recovering control freak, right? Um uh because like what do you really have control over? Not much, you know. Um, and I think that’s the scary thing. And I think that’s why we have a lot of control freaks, is because when you admit to yourself that most of your life is dependent on everything else around you and not you, a lot of it doesn’t have to do with any decisions you make. That is terrifying, it’s really terrifying. And I think it might even be scarier in a world where you feel super disconnected, and I think a lot of people do right now. I do think that if you started asking people, a lot of them don’t feel connected to their community, and so this idea of letting go of control it it requires trust, and we don’t have trust in our community right now, and so a lot of people aren’t willing to let go. And what they’re doing instead, right, is they’re they’re just disassociating and they’re distracting themselves. And I think for me, I want to make art for an audience right now. I have that itch again because I haven’t done it in a couple of years, yeah. But I also know at the same time I need to do process art for my own well-being. And so I’m trying to find a way to marry the two. I’m in a definitely in a transition period. I can feel it, you know. You always we’ve been doing this long enough to know, and I know that I was talking to a friend of mine over the weekend, and I said to him, I said, I don’t know what medium I want to do. I really don’t, and I’ve been there for quite some time, and he’s in the same boat. And I said, But I know I’ll get the answer. I’m just so impatient. I would like to go ask, but this is part of my work. My work is always like this. There’s always a part of my work where a lot of my work happens on the inside of my my head and my body. A lot of it does, and then it becomes this thing. And so I know I’m in that part of the process, and I am very uncomfortable with it. And so I’m I have to sort of just uh that’s letting go, right? I have to trust right, trust the process. Everyone always says. And so I think I’m in that mode. But I think what I need to do is almost, and then we have not, you know, I’ve been you and I have had these conversations in the past of like when you set even tighter parameters for yourself, sometimes it’s easier to get yourself to do something. And so as we’re talking, I’m feeling like maybe that’s what I need to do is I need to say, well, you’re only it’s almost like you control your own self, like well, you’re only allowed to write one page a day. That’s it. That’s all you’re allowed to do and start there. And then it almost gives me like permission but an assignment at the same time. And then because you know, once you get started, there’s no stopping you. It’s the starting part that is really difficult. And that is the part that I’m having trouble with because I think I’m at a point in my life where I have space for it, but I also need to make space and time for it. And part of me is like, you know, I’m going a mile a minute right now. Um because uh this is the part of my like familial life that where everybody’s at a different place all at once. And I am the can I’m the conductor. So I’m like, we’re going here, we’re going here, we’re going here. And so the time when I do have time for myself and to reflect, I’m exhausted. And so it’s it’s like a back and forth with that. And so it’s like coming to terms with that, coming to terms with the fact that I’m not 20 anymore, and I can’t stay up until two o’clock in the morning to do what I want to do, right? And then coming to terms with the fact, like if you really want something, you do actually have to make time for it. It’s not gonna magically appear and admitting that to yourself, and then you know, yeah.

I also think um, for me, it’s something just came up. It’s like uh at the essence, process art is um being in the present moment, meaning I know that like you were talking, like I need to have parameters, but the parameters would be like, I’m gonna give myself five minutes a day just to be in the present moment. To it’s almost like I was thinking about this too this morning. It’s almost like um visual art is acting in a way. You know how actors, lesbians do like the the voice things and they they get into, you know what I mean? They do movements. Um, that is that is process art. That is them getting to the place where they they become like, oh, I I can turn it on. I’m in flow. And I don’t think us as visual artists think about that where it is, because that’s what process art is. It’s making the mark when you don’t want to, when you don’t want to have the breakthrough, when you don’t want to like, when you say I’m tired, you know, when it’s just like giving the moment when you have a challenge, you know, schedule process art, meaning, like you were saying, don’t make it for the art or for the product, the object, but make it for the moment. And then the other thing that I’ve been thinking about as we’re processing is people are so now into experiences, like experiences that is process art at its heart. Yeah, people don’t identify it as. So it’s almost like the experience of just being in the moment, and maybe it is just wow, you know, cutting the moment where you’re instead of going, I’m tired, I’ve got to take care of this, I gotta take care of that. It’s just that moment in time. It’s almost like you always say, artbreaks are the ultimate self-care. So if you take the moment to just be you, whatever you’re feeling, authentically, whatever, whatever that feels like, whatever that move is, whatever that, you know, you know, make the mark and see what happens. And then what what I think is the process also, you make the mark in the present moment. And then after the present moment, you go, Whoa, what was that?

Right.

Let’s think about that. Like, why did I make that? How come I’m feeling this way? And wait, I feel a little differently. You know what I mean? Like it’s and yeah, so there’s so many layers to this processing process art.

Oh, it I mean, I think it is. I think that I mean, I think that you can um I think that you can make process art for something specific. I think you can sit down and you can say to yourself, um, I had this experience and I need to process it. I’m gonna just start, I’m gonna start painting, drawing, um, go for a walk and take some photographs.

Whatever, whatever.

Yeah. But at the same time, and I think that is beneficial. At the same time, you can just say to yourself, I’m gonna sit down and I’m gonna make, I’m gonna just doodle, journal, et cetera, et cetera, with no preconceived notion of what you’re processing. And that in itself, it’s it’s somewhat of a different vein. And that is also very beneficial. And I think that’s why um, I know it’s like a really popular thing for people to be like, I’m gonna make my um small painting today and I’m gonna do it every day. I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna journal while I drink my my cup of coffee or my cup of tea on a daily basis. And I think part of the reason people do it is because you won’t do it if you don’t do it every day. Um, and so they all know that like keeping it as a habit is better than not doing it at all. Um, that’s pragmatic in my mind. And then you begin to look forward to doing it, of course. And I’ve never had that kind of personality. I’ll I’ll be completely honest. I’ve never been the type of person that is in a studio every day. I’m not, I’m not that kind of person. I am a very much like um like in very intensely in the in the midst of it. And then I need very long breaks from it. And so, and I know I’m it’s not like I’m not processing in other ways, right? You know that I’m a baker and I’m I’m a walker-wanderer and things like that, but I know that right now I need to make something with my hands that is not that is not cookies and cake and and stuff like that. And that is what I am that’s what I am struggling with. Maybe it’s because I feel like, well, I’ve done that, I’ve done that, I’ve done that, and I have to remind myself again, it doesn’t matter, you know. And so the latest thing I thought of is that I would do something and I would throw it away. And so right, and then you don’t even um, and then I would get the making part done, and clearly it would be a process, right? Um, and that there would be it would be kind of done and yeah, and out, you know?

Out of you. That I think you were highlighting there’s something about creating with your hands, which is the power of process art. There’s yes, I and it’s getting out of you. I know from having social anxiety where I did have panic attacks from my it was weird because I’m a process artist, but um, in social situations, I would have um panic attacks where my hands would shake. And then I’d be thinking, like, these are how I process life. That’s how I process that stuff. So it’s it’s weird. Like, and was that was that shaking because I wasn’t processing it? Do you know what I mean? I wasn’t letting it out, I was going into judgment about what what would people think of me. You know, am I a freak? Am I weird? Do you know what I mean? Like, and so and but I’m always fascinated with the power of our hands and what is it? Um, I think at if we look at World Artbreak Day, God, we’ve been doing this for 16 years and we’ve seen it. When people create with their hands, there’s something that shifts. It’s just interesting. So it’s almost like um, just create, just see what happens. And my advice for you is try something that you’ve never even done before. Yeah. Or something that scares the zebras out of you that’s like, ah, I’m not a sculptor, but just do it and see what happens.

Yeah, I think that I think, yeah, I I think that’s maybe what I’m looking for, is something that I haven’t really done before. And I’m not sure. I’m not really sure what that is. But I mean it again, I am I know that it will it it will happen. I’m not worried about it. I am I am but honestly super impatient about it and I am happy to be there. But also in the meantime, I can just keep um, you know, doodling with my kids and and things like that. And it’s and and that in itself is extremely important. It’s uh important for them, it’s important for me, and it’s important for us, you know, the connection that’s made with that. Um, we’ve been building a lot of things lately. Um, that is, I mean, I’m using my hands for that, you know. And I think that it’s not like I don’t have it in my life, and maybe what I need to do is like call it out when I see it to almost give myself a little bit. See, you’re doing it. It’s like it’s right. There is no, just like you and I would always say, right? There’s artbreaks everywhere. There’s not like a particular rule set you have to follow. I would just argue that um it you need to not be judging yourself for what it looks like, and you also need to not be worrying about what’s necessarily coming out or up for you while you’re doing it. You have to sort of be in a zone of like letting it flow. And it’s when you’re doing process art, it gets easier to do that. But I also think like people who are experiencing it for the first time might be scared off by it a little bit because it can bring up some weird stuff that you know, like really strong emotions in a very quick period of time can happen, you know.

Yeah, but then there’s a couple things, at least in my own experience, when those strong emotions come up, you’re like, oh wow, where did that come from? Like there’s some power that resides with all in all of us. That’s like if it’s not being heard, it gets smushed down and then it comes out through other things and um other things that could be um toxic. Um, but the other thing that came up for me in art process, um, you the raising of your children is process art in itself. You are you are like um I think there’s a quote I think by the Talmud that said, um, you know, the angels like water the plants and say, grow, grow, grow, grow. It’s almost like that’s what you’re doing with your children. You’re like just watering them through different things, experiences, through holding their space. I mean, you need to give your all parents need to give themselves more credit. Um, even even parenting your own self. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, we’re we’re we’re growing, we want to grow, and that is process art in itself because you’re, you know, does that make sense? It’s like you mean it’s credit.

I would say that is a um to do it genuinely, it is a very similar feeling as uh uh you receive when you are it’s a flow, it’s a rhythm. You know, when you’re um creating a work of art or a body, it’s almost like a body of work that you’re you know, um when you’re doing it, I’m only reflecting on the way that I make art. I make art in a really like um conscious way. I think about it a lot. It’s a very I have a very particular way I want to make my work and um a particular message I want to send. There’s definitely a process to it, but I am not the type of person that’s going to make something um and then say, What are you gonna say to me? I have a I have a vision in my head and I’m gonna put that on paper. Does that make sense? And to me, my parenting is very similar, is that I am I am definitely always conscious and trying to be in the moment at the at the moment I’m parenting, as difficult as that can be at times to be in the moment, um, because it’s it’s also really easy to spiral as a parent. Um spiral about your past and the future at the same time. Um and so I and so I feel like if you’re a con, you know, if you’re a parent, um, you are always in the dredges of process, right? Because everything that you are currently witnessing is a is a shift and it is something you have never experienced before. And then that’s why it brings up a lot of um stuff for parents. You that’s why you end up parenting yourself while you’re parenting your child. Um, and so yeah, you that in itself, I suppose you could say, is a work of process art. My children are a work of process art.

I think so.

Um yeah.

I would almost like, yeah, sorry, I would lean to say that if like that whole like art is life, life is art, that’s what process art is. It’s like there’s no, it’s like we live in these boxes that are like it needs to be this, it needs to be that. When it’s not, it’s just that’s what we’re told it’s supposed to be. When truth, this is my truth, art is life and life is art. And when you can merge those together, it’s like today I saw something that said, you know, a lot of people think um happiness is joy and that’s it. But happiness is not just joy, it’s gratitude, it’s it’s where you know you work for it. Like you know what I mean? It’s not just this, I’m happy, you know what I mean? There’s just like multi-dimensions to it, just like life is art and art is life. It’s like this unfolding and this process about you know, their process up and down, up and down, up and down, up and down, up and down. And then I think that at the end of your life, when you’re on your deathbed, you could be like, Oh, my life is art.

You know what I mean? Yes, I I think that like my kids and my kids would would definitely say, but mom, remember, you think everything is art. So wouldn’t everything you’re doing be art? And so I mean, I’d have to reply, you know, yes, yes, and you know, right? Yes, and I’d also like to create something with my hands, you know, and so I definitely will walk around today differently looking at the things I’m doing, um, and understand that all of it is part of my own sort of it’s almost part of my own way of processing, you know. I mean, like, you know, me grad school, I was like, you know, filming myself washing dishes because that to me was a work of art. And so yes, I do do, I believe that getting to live your life is um a work of art, you know, like living l being alive is um absolutely incredible. What a gift. Yeah, and it’s and then I also just this notion of what if you looked at everything as though it was art was always what always what I’ve been thinking about as an as an artist. And that’s what a lot of those videos were about that, you know.

Yeah, but my uh projection upon you is um I feel like uh this this calling, this process art that’s in you that wants to express itself through your hands, it is about Lauren. Lauren, whoever Lauren is now. It’s not about Lauren as mother, Lauren as wife, Lauren as uh baker, Lauren as do you know what I mean? Yeah, it’s about whoever Lauren is, whoever Lauren’s evolved right now. And so that’s that’s what I’m thinking your struggle is at the moment in time. Oh, for sure. Because it’s like it’s it’s like your work. You want your work. You you know your the rest is art and it’s life and it’s it’s beautiful, and also it’s not beautiful, it’s sublime. It’s like I was talking about like living with, you know, when I was in the the typhoon, Bobby just recently, it’s like living with the awe and then the terror of life, you know, in one in one sequence. So um it’s it’s interesting. Life is it’s if you look at it, it’s fascinating. But that’s my take on you. So you want your kind of like your opus mundy, it’s the Lauren, the Lauren who you’ve evolved into. Yes, yeah.

Oh, yeah. I think it’s like definitely you hit the nail on the head. It’s like, oh, what am I that’s the my personality? What am I gonna do now?

Right.

What what’s next? And I can tell that my my body, mind, spirit, all of me, all of Lauren is like, there’s something else that you need to do. And then I my conscious mind, right, does not know what that is yet. But I have, I don’t, I’m it’s straight, you know, like I I would in my 20s, I would have, I would have been spiraling. What’s nice about age and experience is that I mean, I know that it’ll be I I know that it’ll be worked out because it’s a way it’s worked out every other time before, you know, it’s the waiting part is interesting.

Um, but also projecting out upon you. I think part of your because I know I know your work from grad school, it was a struggle for you. It wasn’t like like my my painting is like I’m like, you know, I’m like, I’m either in the flow or I’m in torment and I’m just gonna blot blot it up. Whereas yours was like part of your process is struggle. So I guess what we need to identify people who are trying to understand what process art is. For some people, it is struggle. It is the struggle, oh yeah, process.

Yeah, it’s a labor of love. It wasn’t, I mean, I remember uh one of my um, you know, I had uh, you know, I I forget who it was, but it was probably during a critique one time. Someone was like, um, don’t you have any fun when you make art? And I was like I was like, no. Yeah. I mean, do you and I was like, Do you? They’re like, Yeah. I’m like, oh, this isn’t fun for me. This is necessity. Yeah, this is not fun. This is necessary. And they were in shock. And I think I don’t think I’m alone in that. I think there’s a lot of people out there that know that what they do is a necessary, um, I wouldn’t call it a necessary evil because it’s it is solving a lot of issues for me that would un otherwise go unsolved. And so yes, you are correct. It is a huge struggle. And for you, I I I wouldn’t say it’s not a struggle, you just do it differently than I do, is that like you uh you put your struggle outside faster than I do, but you throw it on the canvas, you rip the canvas apart, you leave it in your backyard. Burn it. Yeah. And I I think I do a lot of it internally. Yes. And then I try to make it as I think I try to make it as universal as I can for people. Not to say, not to suggest your work isn’t universal. Your work is very um easy to dive into, right? Um, there’s always a point where you’re just sort of staring at your work. And so I’m not trying to suggest that, but um, that would be another interesting conversation to talk about your work versus my work because it is it is very different. But I think that like, yeah, I I mean that’s that is to say that like however you’re gonna do process art, obviously you got two people here who work together forever, and we have very different ways of processing and very different ways of doing process art. You know, like I used to tell people, you know, they’re at artbreak day. I’m I’m sure you’ve been asked this question. Um, well, what kind of work do you do? You know, and a lot of people assume that it is one of the materials that is sitting at the at the tables. And um, I’m like, oh, this isn’t part of my work. My work isn’t anything like this. This is my, and then it’s like, this is my process art. World artbreak day is my process art, right? Yeah. So it’s kind of interesting to think about it that way.

Well, what’s really fascinating, and yes, it might be a two conversation too, but yes, we come from different um perspectives, philosophies, ways of doing process art. Um, we know it’s process art, but we came together in our collaboration, God, uh six, I don’t know, 20 years ago or something like that.

Yeah, like 18 years ago.

Um, and but we came together as partners and where we respect each other’s process, where this partnership, this collaboration um has lasted for 18 years because we come from different places, we come from different spectrums. I could say I’m, you know, a different color or a different fruit or a different, you know what I mean? But we come together because there’s that same tree, which is process art. Um so that makes artbreak day stronger. And we know, we know that we became from our childhood better people through our art in our processes. We have that common yes.

Well, I mean, because like right. Um, I think that that’s the thing is that I think as you become an adult, it you’re not gonna necessarily just sort of impulsively do something. The reason I discovered uh a process art is it was an impulse. I just I did it, I didn’t think about doing it, right? I I wrote poetry and I did drawings and and I journaled when I was younger, and then that um and then I picked up a camera and then I realized years later that um why I picked up a camera, why did I impulsively go towards photography, right? Um, and things like that. And it and and I think that that’s also another thing to say to people who might be starting process art for the first time or might not even know that they’ve been doing it all along and maybe just kind of give themselves a nod for doing it and and do it even more, is that you may not know what you’re getting from it like ever. You may never know why, like why you did what you did. And that’s why I think like we keep talking about the don’t judge yourself part, is because it’s it may not give you any answers. That’s the thing, also I think the people struggle with process art, is that it’s it’s not like A plus B equals C. It’s not one of those things. Um, although I would argue that if you like dedicated yourself to picking something and doing it for seven days straight, um, and like reflecting on how you’re doing mentally, emotionally, um, you know, you it you would be in a different place.

Um, you know, I’d like to I do know, and I’d like to add to that, I think that’s why we both one of the reasons we went to the graduate school we did, which was arts and consciousness, there’s um artists throughout time and space who have been kind of doing the same thing as you and doing the same thing as me. And if you go to books, if you read about it, because I’m very much about spirituality and art. And there’s like there’s thousands of artists that are have, you know, that took that perspective or that process of way of doing it. And yours is more about identity and you know, things like that. And there’s a ton of artists, so I think that’s where art history comes in, or these amazing books that artists write. Um, that you’re like, oh, they’re just like me, and you can understand yourself a little better if you want to go to the next step in the process, right?

Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah. Cool, awesome. Thanks for chatting with me about that today.

I think this podcast was really about processing, processing process art. All right. Till next time.